- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. On balance, the Delete views carried more P&G weight than the Keeps, the latter mostly relying on the unproven assertion about the existence of secondary SIGCOV sources. However, after three weeks, consensus failed to materialize. Feel free to renominate in three months. Owen× ☎ 12:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
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- Yolette Lévy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Biography of a smalltown municipal councillor and activist, not properly referenced as having any strong claim to passing notability criteria for local politicians or activists. As always, neither city councillors nor activists are automatically entitled to have Wikipedia articles just because they existed, and have to show WP:GNG-worthy coverage and analysis about their work to validate its significance — the notability test at the WP:NPOL #2 level for local politicians hinges on the depth and range of reliable source coverage, not on merely verifying that she existed.
But 16 of the 20 footnotes here are directly affiliated primary sources that aren't support for notability at all, and of the just four hits that come from real GNG-worthy media, two are just death reportage from the local media in her hometown; one is just a short blurb about her winning a minor award that isn't highly notable enough to clinch an instant "she's notable because she won this award" freebie all by itself for a person who's otherwise this poorly sourced; and the last one doesn't mention her name at all, and is here solely to verify via her absence from it that she didn't win a city council seat in the election that it's "sourcing", and thus isn't a demonstration of her notability. (And meanwhile, all of the city council elections she did win are supported by the primary sourcing rather than GNG-worthy analysis about her work on the council.)
Nothing here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt her from having to be referenced much, much better than this. Bearcat (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politicians and Canada. Bearcat (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Skynxnex (talk) 00:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Weak Delete - Bearcat makes a good case for deletion here. Being on the board of UQAT is not notable, most of the sources are from the applicant's death. However, while Deletion is not cleanup, if sources could be found that talk about her as the first Haitian city councilor of Val d'Or, maybe that would be something toward notability, but otherwise it doesn't seem to meet the guidelines of WP:NPOL. Bkissin (talk) 20:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: She was an important union player, pushing for women's rights.--Ipigott (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- And what sourcing establishes the permanent significance of her work as a union organizer, considering that her union work is referenced entirely to the primary sourcing here? Bearcat (talk) 12:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- How about this for a start? I expect we could find much more about her union activities in support of women if we had better access to the French-language Quebec press.--Ipigott (talk) 17:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- We need a lot more than just one source to establish notability on that basis, especially when that one source is just her obituary from the local television station, where coverage of the deaths of local figures is merely expected — we would need to see evidence of her being widely recognized as a union organizer beyond just her own city, which is still lacking. Also, the French-language Quebec press googles just the same as English-language press does, so we don't lack that kind of access at all. Bearcat (talk) 17:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- How about this for a start? I expect we could find much more about her union activities in support of women if we had better access to the French-language Quebec press.--Ipigott (talk) 17:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- And what sourcing establishes the permanent significance of her work as a union organizer, considering that her union work is referenced entirely to the primary sourcing here? Bearcat (talk) 12:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: I added sources from radio Canada, and also found out that a beer was named after her after her death to honour her community enngagement. Her role as president of the STENOQ trade union for teachers also appears in a 1996 history book about the region Histoire de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue published by the Institut Québécois de Recherche sur la Culture. Nattes à chat (talk)
- The article is still referenced very overwhelmingly to primary sources rather than reliable ones that count as support for notability, having a beer named after them isn't a reason why a person would get a Wikipedia article in and of itself, and local history books don't secure international notability all by themselves if purely local coverage is all the person has. Bearcat (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, asilvering (talk) 22:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per my understanding of WP:NPOSSIBLE which says
Notability requires only that suitable independent, reliable sources exist in the real world; it does not require their immediate presence or citation in an article.
. She is mentioned in Histoire de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue, though to what degree I cannot say due to lack of access on my part. There is an award named after her, here is a source stating she was named to the Board of Directors Université du Québec en Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Page 16 of this source details her accomplishments, the awards she won in life, and the award named after her. This source substantiates her status as having won an award. This source describes her winning the Alexina Croteau award as well as speaking of her accomplishments including being President of a Union and that she was the coordinator of the World March of Women in Vallée-de-l’Or. There is also this source which was published years after her death and is described asa regional and independent socio-cultural newspaper whose mission is to provide information on cultural life and social and political issues in Abitibi-Témiscamingue
. Considering the existence of an award named after her, a resolution mentioning setting her name aside for future usage, and her status on the Board of Directors for Université du Québec en Abitibi-Temiscamingue and her involvement in the World March of Women, I find it probable to believe that there are sources in Quebec newspapers that we might not have access to. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 01:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
- Primary sources do not support notability. Having an award named after her is not an inclusion-clinching notability claim for a person if your source for that is the self-published website of the award rather than third-party media coverage about the distinction; winning a minor local or regional award is not an inclusion-clinching notability claim for a person if your source for that is content self-published by that award rather than third-party media coverage about the distinction; resolutions mentioning her from the city government are not notability-clinching notability claims for a person if your source for that is the self-published website of the city government rather than third-party media coverage about the distinction; and on and so forth. Nothing is ever an article-clinching notability clain until it causes WP:GNG-worthy third-party media coverage to be generated about it in sources independent of the statement, and "locally important to a small city" (a thing which every single city councillor who ever existed at all could always claim) is not enough of a reason why a small-town city councillor would be exempted from having to pass GNG on proper GNG-worthy reliable source coverage about her work in real media.
(And just for the record, Val-d'Or's GNG-worthy newspaper is the Citoyen, not whatever the hell "L'Indice bohémien" is.) Bearcat (talk) 00:25, 13 October 2024 (UTC)- For the record, L'Indice bohémien
L'Indice bohémien est un journal culturel régional et indépendant qui a pour mission d'informer les habitants de la région sur l'actualité artistique et culturelle de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue. En parlant des gens du milieu culturel de la région, L'Indice bohémien veut contribuer à la professionnalisation des artistes, au rayonnement de ceux-ci partout en région et à l'extérieur, ainsi que soutenir la promotion générale de l'ensemble du milieu culturel de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue.
- They also have an editorial board. Per Wikipedia:Tiers_of_reliability#Other_generally_reliable_news_sourcesTrade publications and Regional and local news are generally reliable sources. L'Indice bohémien is an independent regional publication that focuses on artistic and cultural news. Among their listed partners are the Conseil de la culture de l'Abitibi-Témiscamingue, and Ministère de la Culture et des Communications.
- Just because we don't have access to the sources don't mean they don't exist. There is a strong probability that events, awards, etc. were covered in newspaper publication.
Notability requires only that suitable independent, reliable sources exist in the real world; it does not require their immediate presence or citation in an article
- Again, she is mentioned in an academic history book. A regional independent newspaper which you've randomly asserted isn't reliable, a source that says she was responsible for coordinating an event, she was the president of a Trade Union, there is an award name after her, a proposal in a resolution to set her name aside for future use, and she also won multiple awards in her lifetime. The probability that some news coverage we do not have access to does is exist is more likely than not. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 23:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, L'Indice bohémien
- Primary sources do not support notability. Having an award named after her is not an inclusion-clinching notability claim for a person if your source for that is the self-published website of the award rather than third-party media coverage about the distinction; winning a minor local or regional award is not an inclusion-clinching notability claim for a person if your source for that is content self-published by that award rather than third-party media coverage about the distinction; resolutions mentioning her from the city government are not notability-clinching notability claims for a person if your source for that is the self-published website of the city government rather than third-party media coverage about the distinction; and on and so forth. Nothing is ever an article-clinching notability clain until it causes WP:GNG-worthy third-party media coverage to be generated about it in sources independent of the statement, and "locally important to a small city" (a thing which every single city councillor who ever existed at all could always claim) is not enough of a reason why a small-town city councillor would be exempted from having to pass GNG on proper GNG-worthy reliable source coverage about her work in real media.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 23:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - Bearcat has summed up well. True - there may be scources out there we don't have access to. There may not. If we start working on the basis of "there might be an RS out there somewhere" being good enough we will have lost the plot. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 08:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.